Lets not forget that science is just a methodology,not a straitjacket for humanity.

john Heron, Dover, England

Hey, Andrew - If by Alan you're referring to me, I must protest. Don't put words into my mouth, please. I didn't say beauty doesn't exist. Indeed I think beauty certainly does exist, for me at least. Having got that off my chest, let me make the following point:-
-- Of course scientific philosophy (whatever that is) isn't the only one to "allow truth claims to compete and be judged by reason" (your words, not mine). Every philosophy, every religion should be "judged by reason". That's precisely why religious belief is exposed as fallacious.
-- PS. I'm all for searching for the truth - and enjoying beauty. Beauty is not a philosophy or a proposition or a statement or a claim, all of which must be judged by reason. Beauty is a sensation within the viewer's mind - thank goodness. You can't argue for or against beauty, only perhaps about what different people consider beautiful. And there's really no point in arguing about that. Three cheers for beauty, I say.

alan, cologne,

Human beings appear to manage to do some pretty bad things with or without religion - so an honest person would have to conclude it's not religion that's the problem, as that can get distorted as easily as any other thought system, but the human heart itself.

Archbishops and Popes can be as wrong, and even as evil, as any modern politician - or even as any little individual making moral choices, with or without the guidance of religion, about how to live his life today.

So you can choose to engage with the process of changing the human heart by whatever good means available - and good religion can help here as much as anything. Or just hope that we'll finally blow ourselves to oblivion and rid the universe of a great evil.

andrew holden, oxford, uk

One of the enemies of Christianity has always been so called man's wisdom. Paul the apostle called it "science falsely so called" Man's great effort to explain away their guilt along with their God. Believers will increase with persecution and believers will continue on untill you peace loving people put them to death as stated in your Bible. May hope is befor then many will take the esier way out, just believe the truth.

auburn Packwood, Neosho, Missouri

Yes, let's have a return to Christianity. Bring back the Crusades. Forbid the common folk to own a Bible. Restore religious driven inquisition, torture and burning folk at the stake. After all the Word of God never changes. It was right then apparently (according to successive Archbishops and Popes who must have ordered these actions), so it must be right now. Anyway, isn't the Pope supposed to be infalable, and God's rep on earth, so they couldn't have got it wrong; surely not?

Kevin Sell, York,

I doubt very seriously if "creationism", even in pre-enlightenment times was considered anything more than an allegory. Medieval Christians were more than capable of questioning the notion of night and day could mean anything before the Earth existed.

Your use of the phrase "sky-god" is a puerile attempt to discredit a rather profound concept by associating it with a ludicrous idea. No, Barry, most Christians don't believe that God sits on a cloud somewhere.

You do your argument and your cause no service by descending to such crass rhetorical techniques.

John McD, San Francisco, CA, USA

Hey Barry, who says God issued the first commandments? If you'll read your bible, I think you'll find that Moses had guards placed that were ordered to kill anyone who went up the mountain while Moses was "receiving the tablets from God". Sounds a little fishy to me. Why do you think someone might do that?

Jeff, Baton Rouge,

Andrew,

I am confused. You claim religion has "moved on" and that aspects have been disregarded. Has god issued some new commandments whilst I was away? Is there a revised copy of the bible stipulating that in fact the earth was not created in 6 days? Does the pope acknowledge women weren't made from a rib? etc.

No, the problem is that religion doesn't move on. The bible is "the word of god" and that is unchanging despite the obvious falsehoods and outdated ideas. Whatever you feel personally this is the position of most believers. Also, as far as I know the Christian faiths are defined and not just a smorgasbord of ideas that you can pick and chose from whenever you feel like it.

I think your confusion come in a definition of terms; what you seem to be referring to is metaphysics and moral philosophy. Both noble pursuits and I agree ever improving and evolving. However, they are not dependent on the belief in the Judeo-Chistian sky-god and all his 100 million angels.

Barry, Newbury, Berks

Barry,

If you were a thorough-going materialist then you would have to admit, like Alan, that beauty does not exist and your perceptions have deceived you. Let people make up their own minds about this claim.

Anyway, why should scientific philosophy be the only one to allow truth claims to compete and be judged by reason? Religion has always had competing claims about truth and as some have been shown to be unreasonable they are disregarded or changed. Religion, like science, can move on to new understandings and new theories. Obviously some will still cling on to 'flat earth theories' but reason can change minds in religion as well as in science.

Face it guys, if we have moved on from 1st century science - we can (and many have) moved on from 1st century religion. So why do people like Dawkins and Hitchens refuse to engage with modern, sophisticated religious thought? Religion, like science, is a QUEST for truth and ALL answers are provisional.

andrew holden, oxford, uk

Anyway, Barry, where's your sense of discrimination? Bad, thoroughly ugly rather than beautiful, art poetry, literature and indeed science, all exist. Why is it that you only require religion to be perfect?

andrew holden, oxford, uk

Yes. The interesting debate is between those who want a return to Christianity and those who want a brave new modern society in which religion is at most just a tolerated personal eccentricity. It is not between those who want a penny on or off income taxes.

Malcolm McLean, Bradford, UK

I can't see much hope for religion, but Harry Potter might be a useful substitute.

Dave, Southampton, UK