Ruth Gledhill, Religion Correspondent
Pick up your copy of Joy Division: Closer at WHSmith today
The openly homosexual bishop whose ordination sparked the split in the Anglican Communion has claimed that the Church of England would come close to shutting down if it was forced to manage without gay clergy.
The Bishop of New Hampshire in the US, the Right Rev Gene Robinson, who is divorced and lives openly in partnership with a gay man, said that he found it mystifying that the mother Church of the Anglican Communion was unable to be honest about the number of gay clergy in its ranks.
He said that many of the English Church’s clergy lived openly in their rectories with gay partners, with the full knowledge of their bishops. But he criticised the stance of bishops who threaten the clergy with enmity should their relationships become public. Speaking in an interview in London, Bishop Roninson said: “I have met so many gay-partnered clergy here and it is so troubling to hear them tell me that their bishop comes to their house for dinner, knows fully about their relationship, is wonderfully supportive but has also said, ‘If this ever becomes public then I’m your worst enemy.’
“It’s a terrible way to live your life and I think it’s a terrible way to be a Church. I think integrity is so important. What does it mean for a clergy-person to be in a pulpit calling the parishioners to a life of integrity when they can’t even live a life of integrity with their own bishop and their own Church? So I would feel better about the Church of England’s stance, its reluctance to support the Episcopal Church in what it has done, if it would at least admit that this not just an American challenge. If all the gay people stayed away from church on a given Sunday the Church of England would be close to shut down, between its organists, its clergy, its wardens . . . it just seems less than humble not to admit that.”
He said that the Episcopal Church, under threat of sanctions from the Communion’s Primates if it does not modify its liberal agenda at a meeting of its bishops in September, had been ordaining gay priests “for many, many years”. He said: “Not every bishop will do that, but many do. I will and have. Many make a requirement that the person be celibate, but many do not make such a requirement. It’s interesting that the wider Anglican Communion has either not known that or has not chosen to make an issue of it before now.”
He was surprised that this did not become an issue until his election, and argued that if the principle of gay ordination is wrong, it should be wrong for priests and bishops, not just bishops.
Speaking of his recent meeting with the Archbishop of Canterbury, Dr Rowan Williams, who is currently on study leave, Bishop Robinson said: “It was very private and I was eager and willing to accommodate him and when he asked me not to function liturgically or to preach. I was saddened by that but I want to help him as much as I can. I’m limited in what I can do and I won’t step down, but other than that I am eager to try and help him any way that I can. I certainly would not do so [celebrate or preach] without his permission.”
He said that bishops in the Church of England had backed him but declined to name them. “I have received huge support from the Church of England, both from the clergy and from the pews. Hardly a day goes by, never mind a week, that I don’t receive encouraging words of support. I think the thing that is the most mystifying to me and the most troubling about the Church of England is its refusal to be honest about just how many gay clergy it has – many of them partnered and many of them living in rectories.”
He attacked the proposals to discipline the Episcopal Church for its actions in consecrating him. “The whole notion of punishment being meted out to provinces of the Anglican Communion that are somehow noncompliant is somehow antithetical to the whole Anglican tradition; positing some sort of centralised Curia that has the ability and the authority to do such a thing is about as unAnglican as you can imagine. After all, our Church was founded in resistance to a centralised authority in Rome. And so to pose the possibility of such a centralised Curia with those kinds of authorities seems to me to be as untraditional as it could be.”
He also emphasised his roots in evangelicalism. “As a matter of fact I’m more evangelical than almost anyone you would run into in the Episcopal Church . . . When I speak to gay and lesbian groups I don’t talk to them about gay rights, I talk to them about their souls. My goal is to get them to church and bring them to Jesus.”
Anglican crisis
— In 1998 the Lambeth Conference rejects homosexual practice as incompatible with Scripture" and advises against “ordaining those involved in same gender unions”
— In 2003 Vicky Imogene “Gene” Robinson, a gay divorced father of two, is elected and consecrated as ninth bishop of New Hampshire
—Later that year the Archbishop of Canterbury sets up Lambeth Commission to look into the crisis
— In 2004 it publishes the Windsor report which calls for the US church to “repent” for consecrating an openly gay bishop In June 2006 the General Convention of the Episcopal Church in the US rejects a motion that would have brought it in line with the Windsor report
—The Archbishop of Canterbury demands all Churches sign a covenant maintaining “biblical standards” of Anglican doctrine
Explore your passion for food with the delights of Thai, Indian & Chinese cooking
In our new series, Tony Hawks takes a dry, wry look at modern life - junk mail, interminable meetings and snooty sales assistants
Read the training tips and advice that helped our London Triathletes
Read our exclusive 100 Years of Fleming and Bond interactive timeline, packed with original Times articles and reviews
The latest travel news plus the best hotels and gadgets for business travellers
Shortcuts to help you find sections and articles
2007
£30,000
2006
£14,337
2008
£39,937
Great car insurance deals online
c.£75,000
GlosFirstmeansbusiness
Gloucestershire
Competitive package
Npower
Midlands
£
£32,795 - £41,545
Universitry of Southampton
Southampton
Competitive Package
Npower
West Midlands
1 & 2 Bed apartments
From £249,995
Great Investment, River Views
Great Dubai Investment Opportunities
from £89,950
low-cost ownership homes in London
Multi–Centre 9 Nights
From only £925pp
View thousands of properties online with your Vacation Rental People
£POA
List your property with two leading travel websites
£POA
Great travel insurance deals online
Contact our advertising team for advertising and sponsorship in Times Online, The Times and The Sunday Times. Globrix Property Search - find property for sale and rent in the UK. Milkround Job Search - for graduate careers in the UK. Visit our classified services and find jobs, used cars, property or holidays. Use our dating service, read our births, marriages and deaths announcements, or place your advertisement.
Copyright 2008 Times Newspapers Ltd.
This service is provided on Times Newspapers' standard Terms and Conditions. Please read our Privacy Policy.To inquire about a licence to reproduce material from Times Online, The Times or The Sunday Times, click here.This website is published by a member of the News International Group. News International Limited, 1 Virginia St, London E98 1XY, is the holding company for the News International group and is registered in England No 81701. VAT number GB 243 8054 69.
Far better a small chruch true to its self and its scripture than a false idol which is what this man or is that bride ... pushes.
Again and again we hear words but no substance or imperical evidance. These arguments are built on sand Gene and his cronies like the use of broad brush statement!
simon, london, Uk
Robinson twists what is holy into what is not. Like the scriptures warn. Gives false promises to those struggling and desperately confused as if speaking for God. He mocks God. But that's for now. The battle is the Lord's. As Eve was tempted, "Hast God said?" We know the truth by instinct.
Cheryl, Foothill Ranch, USA
Jesus clearly said that the road to life is cramped & narrow, & few are the ones finding it. Well it seems to get narrower by the day!
He also said He'd sort the wheat from the chaff - well that's most certainly underway.
Wake up Britain! We need to pray earnestly for this nation, & repent!
David Anthony Snow, Witney, England
Great Britian is already in a post-Christian era. It seems to me that the CoE has two choices: live the gospel as it has been revealed in 2008 or got back to the 1800's like the evangelicals and watch as the church continues to be irrelivant to the average Brit.
Tim Lusk, Tucson, AZ, USA
As has already been said Robinson has done more than anyone to bring about the division and collapse of the Episcopal Church in the USA. Those who are faithful to the Bible and the traditional teaching of the Church are being hounded and bullied in every way that the hierachy can think of.
Tim Irwin, St Helens, UK
I know at least three gay rabbis who are actually heads of their synagogues in the UK. They are learned Biblical scholars in happy partnerships. At the High Holy Days they ofifciate side by side with eminent 'straight' clergy and are respected in their communities. Anglicans are being reactionary.
Carol Philips, London, United Kingdom
This loathsome man has single handedly destroyed the Episcopal Church and he couldn't care less, his vanity and ego trumps all. A June bride, indeed.
kit hogan, seattle, usa
if you preach it practice what you preach all the time
ch williams, wolverhampton , staffordshire
Isn't all this a waste of good preaching time, particularly when you're getting paid for doing it?
By the end of a typical day, during which Jesus applied himself to healing the sick, restoring sight to the blind, raising the dead, comforting those who mourned, blessing the poor, raising the spirits of the lonely and bringing hope to the downhearted with the promise of the Kingdom of Heaven to those who followed in his footsteps, there was only time left for supper.
And he didn't have to wear a fancy suit or hesitate or apologise before tipping over the tables in the temple.
Christianity is alive and well, but it's not on that Lambeth stage.
It's out here somewhere. So ignore the theatricals, be silent for a moment and listen for that still, small voice.
And if you still don't get it, let me paraphrase an instruction from way back when: "If you've got it, baby, don't flaunt it."
Theo Nelson, South Hams,
What else can be expected from men who like running around in frocks??
----------
Seriously though, being homosexual is part of a person's biological make-up.
James Jaeger - being a thief or a gossip has nothing to do with a person's biological make-up.
A person can choose whether to steal or gossip.
But a homosexual cannot choose whether to be homosexual or not.
I hate false arguments.
alan, germany,
The church having to close it's doors if homosexuals stayed away is nonsense. A cope out by the the Bishop. If the word of God was preached the homosexuals would either repent, accept Jesus as their personal savior and change their ways or under conviction leave the church and continue to life in sin. The church would go on because people would be saved and souls would be added daily.
Larry Broglin
Larry Broglin, Sweetwater, Tn
The US Episcopal Church and the Church of England seem to have quite a few clerical members who have publicly expressed their difficulty in believing in Jesus Christ as the Son of God and His sacrifice as our redemption.
Now we know what they DO believe in--- fairies. And the more of them the better. The homintern, as W.H. Auden called them, knows what it wants: total power for their own lifestyle choice, and if at the expense of the mission of the church and the best interest of their laity, that is a price they are willing to pay. Of course it a price they think everyone but them will bear.
We are seeing an interesting scenario in Virginia currently, with Virginia's highest judicial officer stating that parishes that wish to leave the Episcopal Diocese of Virginia may do so WITH their property, which he holds is owned by parishes under state law and not the Diocese.
Cluttering up the ministry with men who want to be women and women who want to be men seems rather beside the point
Thomas Lipscomb, New York, NY
homosexual behaviour is sin. homosexuals who maintain that the CHURCH should change to suit them should resign from the church.
paul, austin , virginia
Stephen in Kent:
God did indeed create us. He sent His Son to die for our sins. We choose how we respond to Him and His love and forgiveness.
God created the thieves, addicts, murderers, rapists and gossips as well. But, they, as you, make a choice to commit those acts. We all choose our own actions - even if we have a biological or physiological propensity for that type of behavior.
Can you imagine an adulterer justifying his unfaithfulness to his spouse by claiming God just made them that way?
To the subject of the article, the Anglican Communion deserves to collapse if it can't even follow the clear teaching of Scripture regarding such behavior. And shame on the bishops for their hypocrisy in privately condoning homosexual clergy while publicly condemning it (if it is even true).
We are all sinners. Turn to the Lord, just as you are. Love Him with all your heart and mind and strength. He will clean you and make you whole. He will never leave you nor forsake you!
James Jaeger, Tucson, Arizona USA
It really is very simple. If the church were to collapse as 'Bishop" Robinson suggests so be it. Scripture is very clear about man not lying down with man. If the church refuses to follow the way of Jesus, then maybe it should collapse. However, in my opinion Robinson is just trying to justify his sinful ways and the church's wayward decisions
Bill, Wellington, Florida
If being Gay is bad, why did God make me that way?
Stephen , Kent, UK
If homosexual people (wont use the g word as after teddygate as I dont want to offend the sensibilities of religios people) left I doubt very much if the church of england would collapse, though if some of the comments here are anything to go by it will be full of a pretty nasty bunch of peple.
rich, london,
As has sadly happened elsewhere, homosexual people (I dislike intensely the way the word "gay" has been hijacked) tend to protect themselves in a group and keep others who are heterosexual out by encouraging others of their sexual persuasion to join. This is normal human nature and also occurs with many extremist groups as in politics where they wish to dominate others.
But if you join a group that is based on a strict doctrine as is the Christian and indeed, Jewish, Islamic and all other main-stream religions, you must expect to abide by the teachings for otherwise the corruption starts where the teachings are changed by man, not by God.
So by all means have a contrite and forgiven homosexual in the church as a member, but he or she must sin no more for that is the Law of God and the Church. It really is quite easy to understand.
B J Deller, Marbella, Spain
I'd rather have Richard Dawkins as my Bishop than Gene Robertson
Steve, Brandon,
I would rather have Richard Dawkin as my bishorp than Gene Robertson
Steve, Brandon, Canada
Scripture is very clear on homosexuality being a sin (along with fornication of the heterosexual kind). Why do these homosexual vicars think that they are above the Law of Almighty God? Yes, the Lord forgives those who come to repentance - oh, for the not sure - that's when you are so sorry that you vow never to comitt that sin again! Many people have left the church because these ministers have not been ejected. Thankfully, we have found refuge elsewhere with sound doctrine and behaviour due that of the one who "saved" us. The question remains - do you serve God or man? If you serve God - seek out a fellowship of followers of Jesus Christ - who said - "if you love me - you will obey my commandments"
Ruth - Manchester UK
Ruth, Manchester,
If the Gay clergy left, all the men whom God called into the ministry, but have been denied entry by the liberal and gay mafia, would step into the breach. The Church would emerge stronger and more effective.
Corin Keiler- Lloyd, Wolverhampton,
Leave the Anglican Church to them then,.....
Peter, Addlestone,
To paraphrase Ian of Manchester's comment, Christians are not supposed to judge anybody or anything. Yet, he states, "We all are worthy of what God give us, made worthy by the death of Jesus Christ."
Really ?? Where does is it say we are worthy of what God gives us in scripture ?? Ian ??
I thought we are all unworthy, but God loves and blesses us anyways.
Does Ian suggest that one is not permitted to judge Satan nor one of his disciples ?? How is one to protect himself from the "wolves in sheep's clothing" without the ability to judge ??
I fear if I listen to Ian, I fear I am following a "wolf in sheep's clothing" as he twists scripture to please men's "itching ears".
Gangus, North Berwick, USA
My take-away from this is that the Church of England should clean house like the Catholics are having to do. If the faith has become so feminized it relies on effeminate homosexuals, many of whom are living in sin, it has strayed from the powerful masculine gospel of Jesus Christ.
Caliban, Washington, D.C.
A continuation of the desire for affirmation of those who will not give up their sinful life-styles. One of the scriptures that many who live this way continue to use is that of Jesus not condemning the woman caught in adultery. What they continually omit in their discussions is that Jesus adds, "Go and sin no more." We all sin, but when you live in deliberate sin, without repentance, that is something else indeed. The main problem is not homosexual life-styles, it is denial of the authority of Holy Scripture. All of my life I thought the Church was founded and built on Jesus Christ. Am I to understand now that it is built on priests that live a homosexual life-style? I think not.
LaRue Withers, Matherville, Illinois
The Christian faith as set out in the holy scriptures in more than clear on the subject of God's love for all, and the call to follow and the proclaim. We all are worthy of what God give us, made worthy by the death of Jesus Christ. In other words the ordaining of gay bishops and being lenient with ordained ministers who are similarly inclined can be accepted under all sorts of conditions from a scriptural point of view.
One asks oneself how can any Christian who is judgemental, which both Jesus and Paul told us that we don't have the right to judge, refer to Holy Scriptures, which they acknowledge is God´s Word, without a minimum feeling of guilt ?
Ian, Manchester, UK
This comment can't be very helpful to the Church of England. If the only clergy it can attract are Gay, what exactly does it say about it? It must say that it is out of step with the majority who are heterosexual.
Judy , Liverpool, england
The Christian faith as set out in the holy scriptures is more than clear on the subject of unnatural relationships. Romans 1:26,27 , for example, couldn´t be clearer ; the balance of this
chapter is given to explain what is vile in the sight of the Lord.
In other words the ordaining of gay bishops and being lenient with ordained ministers who are similarly inclined cannot be accepted under any condition from a scriptural point of view.
One asks oneself how can a clergyman who is thus inclined even refer to Holy Scriptures, which they acknowledge is God´s Word, without a minimum feeling of guilt ?
Charles Roberts, Buenos Aires, Argentina